Hammer Nutrition Blog

Using Perpetuem Solids

Posted by cvanloan on 12/03/2010 in Fueling Advice,Products | 28 Comments »
Brian Frank fuels with the NEW Perpetuem Solids during the Highline Hammer while riding with friend, Marshall Opel.

Brian Frank fuels with the NEW Perpetuem Solids during the Highline Hammer while riding with friend,
Marshall Opel.

Author: Steve Born

We believe that Perpetuem Solids, while they can be used as your sole source of calories, are best used as a part-time, solid-food source of calories. They are designed primarily to augment your use of the Hammer Nutrition liquid fuels, helping you reach your targeted hourly caloric total during exercise/competition, especially that lasting more than two hours.

One of the goals in making Perpetuem Solids was to have a product that would, well, be solid, but not so hard that chewing it would wear out your jaw, be difficult on your teeth, or irritate your gums. For some people – and this is due to how the tablet is processed – the consistency of Perpetuem Solids may seem to be slightly chalky when first chewed. Again though, our goal was to provide a high quality, solid-food source that was in an easy-to-chew tablet form, and we believe we’ve found the right combination between the product being too hard versus being somewhat chalky-to-powdery.

As far as the size of a Perpetuem Solids tablet is concerned, this is as small as we can make it in order to supply an acceptable amount of a calorie donation. Please remember that each tablet contains 33.3 calories, which isn’t a huge amount, and that is why the tablet is the size that it is. The best way to deal with the tablet size is to not try and chew & swallow the entire thing whole. Instead, break it in half or into smaller chunks; you’ll find that doing this is almost effortless.

Once chewed, the tablet will – at least to some degree – create a semi-paste-like consistency, some of which may stick to your teeth (think of it as being a little food for later!). Seriously, this is something that, all things considered, we believe is a minor inconvenience, especially compared to the gelatinous chew/cube energy products, which are loaded with refined sugar. For many, many months we tried to make a chewable, gelatinous version of Hammer Gel. However, after numerous tries we realized it simply could not be done without the inclusion of copious amounts of refined sugar, which we definitely were opposed to doing. That’s why we designed Perpetuem Solids, which is the same exact, time-proven formula as Perpetuem in the powder form – high quality calories from complex carbohydrates, GMO-free soy protein, a special soy-derived healthy fat, plus all of the complementary auxiliary nutrients. No refined sugar, no artificial colors, no artificial flavors, no artificial sweeteners.

Lastly, like any solid food source, you will need to wash Perpetuem Solids down with water or fluid from your fuel bottle. Some athletes have commented that they’ve found them to be a bit hard to get down; however, the overwhelming response we’ve received – both from our “working men” mountain bike team as well as from other athletes who have used Perpetuem Solids – is that this is not a significant issue at all. The key is to consume them during periods of reduced intensity (not in the middle of a tough climb or during a sprint!) and, as mentioned earlier, to eat them gradually – chipping away at them, not trying to consuming the entire tablet at one time.

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28 Responses to “Using Perpetuem Solids”

  • If I used to drink two scoops of Perpetuem per hour, how many tablets should I now eat / hr?

    Posted by kevin | December 3, 2010 at 11:36 am
  • Kevin,

    This depends on a few things, short answer would be about 8. However that would be if you eliminated all over liquid calories, which i doubt you would want to. Obviously you will still need a liquid hydration source, so this would all depend if that liquid hydration also contained calories. For example, you might have a bottle of HEED per hour, combined with say 3-4 Perpetuem Solids. Same thing with using Perpetuem, the Solids are good for dialing in your exact desired caloric intake during your workout. Let me know if you have any more questions.

    Phil

    Posted by pgrove | December 3, 2010 at 12:47 pm
  • Can you wash down the Perpetuem Solids with Endurolytes Fizz?

    Posted by Jill Will Run | December 22, 2010 at 5:33 pm
  • Just spoke to Ry at Hammer for about 20 minutes – THE BEST THING ABOUT HAMMER ISN’T JUST THAT THEIR PRODUCTS ABSOLUTELY WORK – it’s that there are people like Ry and Katy that will take the time to explain and answer questions from AG-ers like me. Using Hammer products, and the invaluable HAMMER HUMAN RESOURCES, I’m able to do things even I never imagined, and plan on achieving new goals – something I was about to give up on not too many years ago.

    Been trying Perp as a cocktail with Heed and Enduro – still a good idea – but Ry has set me straight. Call him/them!

    These products, and these people, are the BEST – and anybody reading this probably already knows.

    Posted by Dan Black | December 23, 2010 at 3:27 pm
  • Thanks Dan! That means a lot, have a great season!

    Phil

    Posted by pgrove | January 28, 2011 at 5:27 pm
  • Certainly! I like Strawberry Solids and Mango Fizz.

    Phil

    Posted by pgrove | January 28, 2011 at 5:28 pm
  • I have a tough time w/ the gels and was wondering if Perpetuem Solids could be used as a replacement to the gels? Thanks!

    Posted by Rodney | February 4, 2011 at 8:54 am
  • I used Perpetium for an Ironman and I firmly believe in the value of this product. As a liquid it is superb. As a solid, I am not overly happy. The 33 cal punch is not enough…you are better off carrying the liquid. I’d like to see this developed further with a goal of 100 cal.

    Posted by Tim | April 6, 2011 at 10:54 am
  • Hi Tim – I totally hear what you’re saying, which is why we suggest using Perpetuem Solids NOT as a sole source of calories, but rather to augment your use of liquid Perpetuem or any of the other Hammer fuels.

    Put another way, think of Perpetuem Solids as a part-time fuel, a break from the monotony of going all liquid all the time. Will all of your calorie needs be met? No, not unless you want to chew a lot of Solids, but it will be a nice diversion from having to drink your fuel hour after hour after hour.

    There are a number of applications where Perpetuem Solids would be ideal, in my opinion. One of them is during the run portion of a half or full iron distance race. Sure, it’d be great to have some protein along with the carbs during that phase of the race, mainly to help prevent the excess breakdown of lean muscle tissue (which, as you know, causes a lot of fatigue-causing ammonia to build up).

    Unfortunately (and this is especially true with full iron distance events), unless you have a way to keep premixed bottles or flasks of Perpetuem cold at T2, and unless you’re willing to carry them with you during the run portion, using the liquid form of Perpetuem can be completely unpractical, especially if the weather is warm-to-hot.

    So, in this instance – and you could certainly do this during portions of an ultra running event as well – going with a Hammer Gel + Perpetuem Solids combination is really not a bad idea. You have the carbs from both products, plus the protein (and auxiliary nutrients) from the Perpetuem Solids. Again, Perpetuem Solids will most likely not be the ideal way to try and fulfill all of your hourly calorie needs, but it will help provide some protein (along with complex carbs) and in a form that is not going to degrade in the heat.

    Believe me, we tried more times than I care to remember to get a calorically-denser tablet that was reasonable in size. After countless tries (everything takes so long!) this is the only size that the machinery used to make the tablet could reasonable handle, and it’s the only size we could agree upon that wasn’t too overly large (I think it’s big enough as it is!)

    So we do have a bit of dilemma in that Perpetuem Solids resolves the issue of a non-degrading carb+protein fuel, though one that’s not really terribly calorically dense. Again though, if used as a part-time fuel, to augment your use of liquid Perpetuem or any of the Hammer fuels, I think it’s a pretty darn good little product.

    I hope this helps!

    Steve

    Posted by Steve Born | April 11, 2011 at 3:31 pm
  • Dear Hammer Folks,

    I’d be interested in learning your thoughts about using Perpetuem Solids in conjunciton with Gel for a plain old marathon — say for somebody who runs the distance in about 3.5 hours. All over your site you talk about Perpetuem being good for activities over 2 hours. Would a 3-and-a-half-hour marathoner be better off using Perpetuem rather than Gels? Or some combo? If so, what would be best?

    Posted by Brian | April 25, 2011 at 2:25 pm
  • Hello Brian – Now that Perpetuem Solids are available, I think that a combination of them + Hammer Gel would be perfect, especially for those “gray area” events, the ones in the 2.5 – 3.5 hour range like your marathon (see the section entitled “The ‘Gray Area’ of fueling” in the article “Proper Caloric Intake During Endurance Exercise” at http://www.hammernutrition.com/knowledge/proper-caloric-intake-during-endurance-exercise.1275.html for more discussion on this).

    With Hammer Gel you have a super easily digested fuel, while with Perpetuem Solids you have a carb/protein/healthy fat fuel that’s easily chewable and easy to digest. Best of all, because you’re not mixing it in water, Perpetuem Solids won’t spoil in the heat.

    So yes, I think a Hammer Gel + Perpetuem Solids combination would be ideal for your marathon. There are nearly infinite ways of using these two products in tandem; just remember to add up all of the calories from both sources so that you know you’re reaching your target hourly intake goal.

    Hope this helps!

    Steve

    Posted by Steve Born | April 26, 2011 at 1:03 pm
  • Say I only want to bring along a few tablets, say 3-4, and I’m going to keep them on the inside pocket of some running shorts. Is sweat melting them going to be an issue and are they going to turn into mush in the pocket?

    Posted by Emily Baehr | June 3, 2011 at 9:29 am
  • Good afternoon,
    I would like to know who sells them in Canada (Montreal, Qc) or how can I have them shipped to me?

    Posted by Vanessa Ventura | June 6, 2011 at 11:03 am
  • I used to make a paste of Perpetuem and carry a tube or flask of it but the solids work much better for me. Less bulky and satisfying to chew. On my weekly ride on Queen K I take a couple of solids before I ride and it makes a big difference later in the ride when I need it after I turnaround. In marathons I’ve used it as my sole source of food and I agree that you need to use the gels and Heed alongside of it for better results. If I just use the solids I feel too “full” sometimes because it does force you to drink a good amount of liquid with it.

    Posted by Joe Loschiavo | June 12, 2011 at 1:05 pm
  • In previous races, when I mixed gels (like GU) with Gatorade, this unfortunately caused diarrhea and significantly compromised my performance. I obviously longer do this, but when mixing your products, such as gels and Perpetuem solids, does this disrupt the GI system, similarly? Thanks

    Posted by Natalia | July 1, 2011 at 4:30 am
  • Hi all –

    Apologies for the tardiness of some of these replies!

    @ Emily – If you don’t keep the Perpetuem Solids tablets in the tube provided, or at the very least in a ziplock-type bag, at least a portion of the tablet will get pasty-to-mushy due to them getting in contact with the sweat. It would probably take a long run and a lot of sweat to cause a whole tablet to completely “turn into mush.”

    @ Vanessa – Go to “Search Canada” section on our Dealer Locator link (http://www.hammernutrition.com/dealer-locator/). Type in the city and select the province from the scroll-down bar. This will give you a list of all our retailers in or near that particular city that sell our products. The ones listed at the top (with the Hammer Crank logo next to them) are your best bet as they are the retailers that stock at least five of our fuels.

    That said, Perpetuem Solids is a fairly new product and as such I honestly don’t know which stores stock them yet. I can tell you that our distributor in the eastern area of Canada does stock them so it would seem logical that at least some of the stores on the list will have Perpetuem Solids in stock. Phone numbers are provided for each store so give them a call first to make sure they do, in fact, stock the product.

    @ Joe – Thanks for sharing your experiences with us. I agree with you that while Perpetuem Solids could conceivably be used as one’s sole source of calories, the product is best used as a part-time fuel, augmenting one’s liquid fuel intake, supplying a few calories, and (most importantly to me) providing some protein in a form that won’t sour or “go bad.”

    Because they are not calorie-dense on a per-tablet basis (33.3 calories/tablet), it would require quite a few of them to fulfill most athletes’ calorie requirements… I think if I tried to rely solely on Perpetuem Solids my jaw would wear out! So again, as you mentioned in your post, I think the product is best used as a part-time fuel.

    @ Natalia – All of the Hammer Nutrition fuels are compatible with each other, meaning that you can use a variety of them during your training sessions and races without having any GI issues.

    The main problem I have seen with athletes when it comes to GI distress is that they are:

    1) Consuming too many calories in general
    2) Consuming simple sugars (glucose, sucrose, fructose)
    3) Combining simple sugar-based fuels and complex carbohydrate-based fuels.

    All of these are important to remember but #3 I think is especially important. I sincerely believe that athletes would be better off doing their entire workout or race solely on simple sugars OR complex carbohydrates, not a combination of both.

    I discuss this in more detail in the article “Simple Sugars and Complex Carbohydrates – An Incompatible Combination” at http://www.hammernutrition.com/knowledge/simple-sugars-and-complex-carbohydrates-an-incompatible-combination.2890.html

    I hope this helps answer everyone’s questions! However, if anyone needs more information, clarification, or assistance, please post here or feel free to email me directly at sborn@hammernutrition.com

    Sincerely –

    Steve Born

    Posted by Steve Born | July 1, 2011 at 9:59 am
  • I have read a lot of the info. on your site and would like to find out exactly what and when you guys recommend for ultra-running training and races (all exceed 2 hours). In addition, I would be interested in seeking advice on what and when you recommend for multi-day mountain climbing trips.

    Posted by Jamie | July 11, 2011 at 6:00 pm
  • Hello Jamie – Here are my thoughts and general suggestions, which I hope you will find helpful.

    Whenever a workout or race is around 2 hours in length (and under certain circumstances I believe it can be up to 3 hours or slightly longer) you can go “carbs only,” which means Hammer Gel + water or HEED.

    When you go longer than that you should be using a “carb + protein” fuel to cover most-to-all of your calorie requirements, and that would mean Sustained Energy or Perpeteum. You could use either of those two products as your sole fuel from beginning to end or you can use them as your primary fuels, which is to say that you’d want to use them for roughly 2/3 – 3/4 of the time… the other 1/3 – 1/4 can be fulfilled from any of the other Hammer fuels (Hammer Gel, HEED, or the occasional use of Perpetuem Solids or Hammer Bars). All of our fuels are compatible with each other so you can “mix and match” them as desired, allowing you to have some variety in your fueling “menu.”

    The suggested dosages for these products can be found in the updated article “The Hammer Nutrition Fuels – What They Are and How to Use Them” at http://www.hammernutrition.com/knowledge/the-hammer-nutrition-fuels-what-they-are-and-how-to-use-them.1252.html

    I personally prefer Perpetuem over Sustained Energy (SE), even though I’ve been using SE since the very beginning (back in 1992!) and still use it today. The two products are fairly similar and their application is identical. Which one to use is mainly personal preference; however, as I write in the above-listed article:

    With Sustained Energy and Perpetuem, you have two great long distance fuel choices. When exercise goes beyond about two hours, you can use either product as your primary or sole fuel, in any combination with each other or any other Hammer Nutrition fuel.

    That said, we have noted that Sustained Energy may be the ideal fuel choice when endurance exercise intensity is at a higher level (approximately 70–85% MHR), whereas Perpetuem may be a more attractive choice the longer the athlete goes and when exercise intensity is at a more aerobic pace (under 70% MHR). Additionally, over the years we have noted that Sustained Energy may be the ideal choice for very lean athletes (the “high metabolizer/hyper–metabolic” types), while Perpetuem—with its added healthy fat component—may be the ideal choice for athletes with a naturally higher body fat percentage. The rationale for this suggestion is that athletes with a higher body fat percentage have a greater volume of calories available from body fat stores, which the lyso–lecithin component of Perpetuem may effectively assist in accessing for use as energy.

    Again though, because the applications for Sustained Energy and Perpetuem are identical, either fuel can be used as the primary–to–sole fuel during prolonged bouts of exercise. Test each product in your long–duration workouts, under a variety of conditions, to find which product works best for you!

    — END —

    Keep in mind that there isn’t any definitive “science” to back up this rationale; it’s just something that we’ve observed over the years. Bottom line is that when you’re doing workouts or races that are up to 2 hours in length (and sometimes longer… see the section entitled “The ‘Gray Area’ of Fueling” in the article “Caloric Intake – Proper amounts during endurance exercise” at http://www.hammernutrition.com/knowledge/proper-caloric-intake-during-endurance-exercise.1275.html) you can go “carbs only.” When you go beyond that you should be using Perpetuem or SE as either your sole fuel from beginning to end or as your primary fuel, covering 2/3 – 3/4 of your energy requirements, with the remainder fulfilled via the other Hammer fuels.

    In the “Hammer Nutrition Fuels” article I discuss various mixing options for SE and Perpetuem. Personally, I prefer to make concentrated bottles or flasks of the product instead of making a bottle of the product each and every hour. I think it saves time, it saves space (I don’t have to carry too much, if any, additional powder with me), and it allows me to drink and enjoy plain water to fulfill my hydration needs and to cleanse my palate (I personally get tired of drinking large volumes of flavored drink mixes after awhile).

    So for your ultra running training and races, as well as your multi-day mountain climbing trips, going with concentrated multi-hour bottles of SE or Perpetuem may make things easier for you logistically speaking and also in regards to saving space.

    You will need to fulfill hydration requirements and for that we suggest, on average, 20-25 ounces of fluid per hour, plus or minus 3-4 ounces on either end. The amount you need will be based on your weight, the temperatures, and how well or poorly you’re acclimated to them. But start with 20-25 ounces per hour (roughly the equivalent of a small to large water bottle) and adjust from there. The article “Hydration – What You Need to Know” (http://www.hammernutrition.com/knowledge/hydration-what-you-need-to-know.299.html).

    Lastly, you need to cover your electrolytic mineral needs, and we have a couple of products to take care of that – Endurolytes (in both capsule and powder form) and Enduroytes Fizz (an effervescent form of the product). I personally prefer using the capsules, simply because I believe it allows me more flexibility with the dosing than pre-mixed bottles of Endurolytes Powder do. For example, what I need at 2 pm may be more than what I need at 8 am, if only because the weather may be hotter at 2 pm. When I’m using the capsule form of Endurolytes I can adjust my dose immediately and continuously.

    If one chooses to use Endurolytes Powder or Endurolytes Fizz, which is perfectly fine of course, they will be mixing a specific amount of the product in their water or fuel bottles. As a result, they have limited-to-no flexibility with their dosing; what they’ve premixed in their bottle(s) is what they have to rely on. Therefore, I always suggest that athletes using Endurolytes Powder or Endurolytes Fizz carry some extra product with them (powder, fizz, or capsules), just in case that premixed amount is proving to be inadequate for whatever reason.

    If you’re using the encapsulated version of the product, our general recommendation is 1 capsule per 50 pounds of body weight on an hourly basis. However, that is not a “set in stone” recommendation so be flexible with the dosing, basing the amount you take in deference to your fitness level, the temperatures, how well or poorly you’re acclimated to the temperatures, and other factors.

    Electrolyte replenishment is discussed in more detail at http://www.hammernutrition.com/knowledge/electrolyte-replenishment-why-it-146-s-so-important-and-how-to-do-it-right.1274.html

    This covers the basics on fueling – what to use and how much – for your long distance workouts and races. For your multi-day hikes you can follow the same protocol, though since you aren’t racing at a high exertion level, I think that you can use solid food more frequently. That’s where Hammer Bars come in… I think they are an ideal solid food choice. Perpetuem Solids would also be an ideal solid food choice, breaking up the monotony of going “all liquid” but still supplying your body with high-quality fuel.

    I hope this information will be helpful to you, Jamie, but if you need more specifics, or if you want to discuss supplements as well (which I didn’t go into here), please let me know. You can post your questions here or you can email me directly at sborn@hammernutrition.com

    Sincerely –

    Steve

    Posted by Steve Born | July 14, 2011 at 12:57 pm
  • I have used concentrated Perpetuem liquid in a bottle for the first few hours of long races before and it worked really well for me.

    I want to use the Perpetuem Solids for a 50 mile trail run, but I was wondering what to carry them in. Will they disintegrate and make a mess in my pockets after jiggling around for 12 hours?

    Posted by Alan | July 20, 2011 at 10:31 am
  • Hello Alan –

    The 6-tablet size of Perpetuem Solids comes with a tube that holds them fairly tightly. When you buy the 90-count container of Perpetuem Solids you get the same tube for carrying and dispensing the product.

    If the tube is kept full-to-nearly full, there should be minimal breakage of the tablets. If you’re running with half a tube full of Perpetuem Solids then yes, you will probably see at least some breakage of the tablets, mainly in the form of a powdery residue at the bottom of the tube.

    The other option is to keep Perpetuem Solids tightly packed in a semi-heavy-duty-to-heavy-duty ziplock-type baggie.

    Bottom line is that some of the tablets, if shaken around enough, will start to break apart,.. not really full breakage but coming apart and leaving a powdery residue. There’s not that can be done about that but definitely use the tube, a zip-lock bag, or other container that will allow them to be kept fairly compacted together. Don’t carry them loose in your pockets or the powder will accumulate in them sooner or later, and will mix with your sweat, leaving a bit of mess to deal with.

    I hope this helps!

    Steve

    Posted by Steve Born | July 20, 2011 at 11:09 am
  • What is the oxalate content? I have kidney stones, and I try to stay away from soy. Thanks!

    Posted by Greg Richardson | October 15, 2011 at 5:43 pm
  • I’m not so sure about the suggestion that Perpetuem Solids should be a “once in a while” fuel source for long-distance events. I like using them in ultramarathons as one of my primary fuel sources.

    In my last race, the 24-Hour Run National Championship, I took in basically three things–one every 20 minutes–for the duration of the race. I alternated one Hammer Gel, one Perpetuem Solid, and one other thing, which was often a bite of a Hammer Bar, and was successful with this strategy. I am only about 125 pounds, though, so while I may need a lot fewer calories than most people, the idea of using Solids as a major contributor in some kind of rotation–even if it means two at a time–is a good one.

    Perpetuem Solids can play a major part of the refueling plan.

    I thought that the Solids were fine in the chewing department–they broke up easily and weren’t a big deal to “clean out” of the mouth. Each thing I took in was washed down with HEED anyway, so that pretty much took care of the bits of Solids.

    Posted by Byron | October 18, 2011 at 8:41 pm
  • I’m 59 years old and trained for two 5 hour Adventure Races last summers. I used your products religiously and finished quite well considering I had lost 70 lbs. training and hadn’t been athletic in a number of years. I’m kicking off this year with a 12 hour AR this April. My weight will be down to 200 lbs. Please give me some race day advise for maximum endurance. I’m racing in Fl so it will be “hot”.

    Posted by Dan Summers | February 21, 2012 at 2:46 pm
  • I have some questions about what to consume during a 24 hour race. I am running the Worlds Toughest Mudder in November and looking for nutrition advice.

    Posted by matt | August 15, 2012 at 1:29 am
  • I’m fixing to do my first full Marathon in November. I have tried the Heed, the Perpetuem solids and the gel on my long run, but what is your recommendation on the best way to split these 3 up over my marathon. I weigh 138. I’m not looking to win the race, just to keep from hitting a wall.

    Posted by WandaS | October 11, 2012 at 2:15 pm
  • Hi I think my question has been answered a few times in different formats but i am hoping to try and clrify some things
    Firtsly, i have decided to make a major effort into my nutrition, i have trained well for some time and now doing an Ironman and the nutrition is a big part of next next stage of improvement:

    My question
    I want to use Perpetuem solids, gels and powder for run/ bike in combination with some “normal foods”

    I have done my first 2 hour run and 6 hour bike session using the formula and not really sure yet but was happy i think

    my hope is you could layout a basic nutrition plan for the run bike leg

    i want to take about 70-75 grams of carbs per hour (260cal) and electrolytes

    if this is a big ask please let me know and maybe direct me to a good source read

    thanks heaps

    Posted by mark heaysman | January 15, 2013 at 5:31 pm
  • Hello: I understand that Perpetuem, either in solid or liquid form, should be taken for activities extending past two hrs., but I can’t find anywhere that clarifies whether consumers should take this starting around the 90-120 minute mark, or from the beginning.

    For a marathon, for example, should I fuel with Heed and Hammer Gels until the 2 hr. mark, and then start taking the Perpetuem, and stick to that (and water, of course) for the remainder of my race?

    Please clarify/advise.
    Thanks!

    Posted by Claudia | June 4, 2013 at 7:35 am
  • Hello Claudia –

    I apologize for the very tardy reply to your question. When you use Perpetuem (or Sustained Energy) for a long-duration workout or race, you can use the product as your sole fuel from beginning to end. Or, you can use it as your primary fuel – approximately 2/3 – 3/4 of the time – using any of the other Hammer Nutrition fuels (Hammer Gel, HEED, etc) to cover your calorie needs for the remainder of the time.

    You don’t need to start the workout or race with a “carbohydrate only” fuel (Hammer Gel, HEED), then switch to a “carbohydrate + protein fuel (Perpetuem, Sustained Energy) at or around the 2-hour mark. You could, but it’s not a 100% necessity.

    Bottom line is that you have a couple options — you can use Perpetuem right from the get-go and use it as your sole fuel (from beginning to end) or as your primary fuel (about 2/3 – 3/4 of the time). If you want to start your long workout or race with Hammer Gel or HEED for the first hour or two, that’s perfectly fine, though not absolutely necessary.

    I hope this answers your questions!

    Sincerely –

    Steve

    Posted by Steve Born | July 17, 2013 at 9:51 am

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